“Is it not that simply because he doesn’t contend with anyone, so no one will contend with him?”
I see laying low as more of a vantage point. When you’re not ahead or above, you can see the picture clearly, everyone in it— their needs, motives, drives, desires.
People don’t always contend because they’re wrapped up in their own world and an entirely different view. So, how could they notice?
I can't help picturing someone peaking over tall grass, laying low 😏I like the idea you bring up of people manufacturing contention while blindly wrapped up in their own world.
that’s another way to see it! like a parent or teacher who doesn’t engage with petty drama. they do not accept nonsense, so nonsense has nowhere to writhe.
Hi, Miriam! As a concept, gaesa usually come up in a magic, spell casting setting. A target of the spell is prohibited from seeing or becoming aware of something that they otherwise would. Occurred to me that some of the affects of cultural programming do a similar thing. 🙏💐
This is so unbelievable beautiful, Paul. We can read the sages and interpret them the best that we can, and our understanding is often based on what we, see, feel, and know, in our own limited humanity. You lead those words of wisdom to the forefront and make it easy for us to peak into the philosophy, that you have been part of for so long. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Annelie, your encouragement means so much. For a chapter like this, I go off script quite a bit, a chance to air thoughts that need to be expressed.
if the best ruler must lower himself below his people, is he not entirely of the people? is this type of leadership advocating for an emergent individual dedicating themselves to the greater good? if he wields authority over them, it seems like it would be too contradictory.
It doesn't describe reality, does it? There's a tone of wishful thinking. To be fair, a failing of most all leadership gurus and their advice. A "wouldn't it be nice if" vibe. I think it comes down to the definition of "the greater good."
it is definitely wishful; i believe he’s operating under the ideal as opposed to an actual person. his ideal seems to be a people who are fulfilled themselves, without a strong guiding hand, other than the Dao, of course.
I think that is a really interesting thread to pull on. China's history of this time seems to show a gap between "advisors" and the leaders being advised. The advisors putting forth an ideal, and the leaders throwing their hands up, facing reality. Lots of describing where C is, but not how to get from A to B to C.
exactly - it’s always a few steps removed and practically (as in, for practical ends) seen as a pitch to improve rulership. it seems, at the time, these schools of thought could be criticized as failing to cause genuine change, as we see today with anti-capitalist angst. they lasted longer than their contemporary lords, however!
An old tale, yeah, repeated each generation. How to use influence without falling into selfishness, that seems the trick that nobody can solve. Is it selection bias? We only remember or see use in studying/savings the abusers and failures of power?
i would think so… today we see algorithms abusing the normal reaction of remembering deeply those who have harmed us in the form of capturing anger and criticism. these two outperform almost anything else. i think we have a tendency to focus on dangers and overlook that which is beneficial. there have been a good number of sage-kings throughout history, but it takes a special curiosity to latch on to them.
“Is it not that simply because he doesn’t contend with anyone, so no one will contend with him?”
I see laying low as more of a vantage point. When you’re not ahead or above, you can see the picture clearly, everyone in it— their needs, motives, drives, desires.
People don’t always contend because they’re wrapped up in their own world and an entirely different view. So, how could they notice?
I can't help picturing someone peaking over tall grass, laying low 😏I like the idea you bring up of people manufacturing contention while blindly wrapped up in their own world.
this is a point of view i hadn’t considered. the sage goes unnoticed and thus is incontestable.
If Laozi was addressing an emperor with a mandate, he's pointing out what a loss of face, and waste of time, to stoop to contend with anyone else.
that’s another way to see it! like a parent or teacher who doesn’t engage with petty drama. they do not accept nonsense, so nonsense has nowhere to writhe.
Oh, I'm going to use that... nonsense has nowhere to writhe.🙏
Wondering where I can read more about geasa? Exploring the idea of creativity, so it would be helpful.
Hi, Miriam! As a concept, gaesa usually come up in a magic, spell casting setting. A target of the spell is prohibited from seeing or becoming aware of something that they otherwise would. Occurred to me that some of the affects of cultural programming do a similar thing. 🙏💐
This is so unbelievable beautiful, Paul. We can read the sages and interpret them the best that we can, and our understanding is often based on what we, see, feel, and know, in our own limited humanity. You lead those words of wisdom to the forefront and make it easy for us to peak into the philosophy, that you have been part of for so long. Thank you.
Thank you so much, Annelie, your encouragement means so much. For a chapter like this, I go off script quite a bit, a chance to air thoughts that need to be expressed.
if the best ruler must lower himself below his people, is he not entirely of the people? is this type of leadership advocating for an emergent individual dedicating themselves to the greater good? if he wields authority over them, it seems like it would be too contradictory.
It doesn't describe reality, does it? There's a tone of wishful thinking. To be fair, a failing of most all leadership gurus and their advice. A "wouldn't it be nice if" vibe. I think it comes down to the definition of "the greater good."
it is definitely wishful; i believe he’s operating under the ideal as opposed to an actual person. his ideal seems to be a people who are fulfilled themselves, without a strong guiding hand, other than the Dao, of course.
I think that is a really interesting thread to pull on. China's history of this time seems to show a gap between "advisors" and the leaders being advised. The advisors putting forth an ideal, and the leaders throwing their hands up, facing reality. Lots of describing where C is, but not how to get from A to B to C.
exactly - it’s always a few steps removed and practically (as in, for practical ends) seen as a pitch to improve rulership. it seems, at the time, these schools of thought could be criticized as failing to cause genuine change, as we see today with anti-capitalist angst. they lasted longer than their contemporary lords, however!
An old tale, yeah, repeated each generation. How to use influence without falling into selfishness, that seems the trick that nobody can solve. Is it selection bias? We only remember or see use in studying/savings the abusers and failures of power?
i would think so… today we see algorithms abusing the normal reaction of remembering deeply those who have harmed us in the form of capturing anger and criticism. these two outperform almost anything else. i think we have a tendency to focus on dangers and overlook that which is beneficial. there have been a good number of sage-kings throughout history, but it takes a special curiosity to latch on to them.
true. a soft touch without unnecessary meddling.
Love it. Just learned a new word: negentropy. The bit about the sage being humble in order to lead, reminds me of Jesus washing his disciples' feet.
Happy to add to our vocabulary! 🙂 That is a good comparison, Laozi was likely addressing this chapter directly to a god-emperor.
Just knowing you're here and these thoughts are appreciated. 💖🙏