I will have to go back and read carefully the first thirty-some chapters of The Daodejing again, because I don’t recall the first half being this brutal.
i love this piece. the final few paragraphs encapsulate the struggle of coming to terms with an amoral entity. coming to realize this, the structures of justice and compassion, alongside cruelty and violence, the full range of human capacity, comes into scrutiny. the vivid desperation of grasping onto the known, the comfortable, eroding away, searching for something solid ground on which to stand.
indeed, something is lost each day when following the Dao.
Oh, it is so good to be finally back and read these chapters from a neutral state of mind. I love how this chapter brings out the straightforwardness of the text. In many ways, I understand your anger, Paul...and to be fair, I'm right next to you, in the same boat, with all of my baggage too.
From what I understand, this chapter paints a picture that the Dao or Nature is nonchalant, or, that its only job is to maintain balance between the black and the white. So, naturally, if we fear the black, or don't like aspects of it (like injustice or cheating, etc.), we naturally will try to live in the white and appease the rulers (God, leaders or Nature itself) of the white side... So, in a sense, even Laozi is trying to say, do what you will!
In a slightly different, but relatable tangent, when you say Nature in general and then speak of our nature as human beings, the difference is just that. Nature (in general) is here to balance out all our individual, intrinsic natures, not just limited to humans, but also extending to other living things, elements, virtues and thoughts, etc.
First and most important, welcome back, you are missed and always top of mind 🙏. I believe I get what you mean, though I run into that old limit, the limitations of language to express real indifference. To say ugly, we create beauty, the opposite, and somehow the indifference of Nature, its “just is” state, needs a word that goes beyond. The Daodejing so far, for me, is an argument to see Nature for what it is, whatever we might prefer the answer to be.
The indescribability... It almost takes me back to chapter 14, where the differences in cultures give us so many expressions and yet, the element of indescribability remains, and then, to chapter 19, where we are guided to stay away from the excess, and finally to chapter 21, which you cleverly titled "The Dao Guides."
I think, where the first half was straight up telling us what to do and what not to do, the second half is showing us the grey - a better word for the not-so-black, but neither too white, while taking us through the experience rather than just defining it for us.
This again is a chapter to come back to in a few days.
Stringing the chapters, you are threatening to decode the Daodejing! There is something about the "random walk" of the chapters but the key remains illusive. 🙂 They say the second half is more practical, the advice more specific. Some chapters, yes, but others definitely not. The order appears random, but isn't, and could be redone plausibly in many ways 🙏
I think we are similar to nature, but also different—nature can be serene and destructive. But unlike nature, we have the capacity for compassion, a will to choose, and the ability to chart a path. We can transcend nature - and that is both terrifying and beautiful.
A aspect most interesting to me of these ideas is how different minds can have what appear to real differences and yet reach similar conclusions or similar real actions. Such as us for instance, Miriam, my view of Nature is entirely comprehensive, nothing lies outside of it, or even could. Nature allows the possibility of kindness and compassion to flourish, but only if we prove it as a viable strategy for survival. So such differing views of Nature arrive in the same practical place. I appreciate that we can give special weight to the conclusion and not be lost in the differences along the way. We could have interesting discussions over the idea of transcending Nature. 🙏🙂
I totally know how you feel Paul. There are some lessons that I “logically” know are true but there is a huge barrier to me being able to embody. Ah to be human. I always love reading this series :)
I consider it would be helpful Paul if you included the particular translation you used of the Daodejing, as there are SO many translations around, all with differing perspectives. Having said that, the Daoist tradition has always included a compassionate response to suffering, which continues in modern time. Most Daoist temples/organisations have charities connected to them. Perhaps that might address your rage? I hope so. As for "nature" - many folk believe in the concept of Gaia, wherein our planet is a "self-regulating complex system" or even a consciousness - and even attribute climate change to Gaia trying to throw off the poison humans have inflicted upon her.
Translations can capture the essence of the original, they can also mislead. here's a number of different interpretations of Chapter 62 - with vastly different emphasis. https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclz62.htm
Sometimes translators put words or concepts which aren't there in the original due to their own cultural baggage.
The twists and turns of the Daodejing's history are what have come to interest me the most. I appreciate it as a piece of art, collective human art. We might have a fun conversation about my thinking on consciousness (not that special) and what's included in nature (everything). 😄🙏
Thank you, Debbie, let me clarify the "rage" as general and undirected, as I think many people struggle with. Certainly nothing specific to Daoism, the Daodejing, or any organization. This chapter is part of a series on Medium, I have been meditating on a chapter a week (with some side quests). Probably it makes more sense to readers who got to start from chapter 1. I will DM the details of where the translation comes from. You might be the first person to recognize it!
I really doubt whether to share these Medium chapters here out of order, but two years have passed and chapter 1 looks dated…. I’d write it differently today. Maybe a quick book when its all done.
It is hard with old copy - I try and rewrite but I must say the process is exhausting. I guess the old copy, out of date order, etc led me to thinking you were feeling the DDJ didnt take account of people's understandable rage. Glad you have clarified it.
i love this piece. the final few paragraphs encapsulate the struggle of coming to terms with an amoral entity. coming to realize this, the structures of justice and compassion, alongside cruelty and violence, the full range of human capacity, comes into scrutiny. the vivid desperation of grasping onto the known, the comfortable, eroding away, searching for something solid ground on which to stand.
indeed, something is lost each day when following the Dao.
Thank you, really, it is finding common cause and understanding with others gives me hope.
If Nature plays all the numbers, then compassion has an equal chance, standing or falling without interference. If we determine to try.
it certainly does. compassion is cooperation, which is the basis of strength. it’s how we succeed and will succeed as a species. it is our way .
Oh, it is so good to be finally back and read these chapters from a neutral state of mind. I love how this chapter brings out the straightforwardness of the text. In many ways, I understand your anger, Paul...and to be fair, I'm right next to you, in the same boat, with all of my baggage too.
From what I understand, this chapter paints a picture that the Dao or Nature is nonchalant, or, that its only job is to maintain balance between the black and the white. So, naturally, if we fear the black, or don't like aspects of it (like injustice or cheating, etc.), we naturally will try to live in the white and appease the rulers (God, leaders or Nature itself) of the white side... So, in a sense, even Laozi is trying to say, do what you will!
In a slightly different, but relatable tangent, when you say Nature in general and then speak of our nature as human beings, the difference is just that. Nature (in general) is here to balance out all our individual, intrinsic natures, not just limited to humans, but also extending to other living things, elements, virtues and thoughts, etc.
Do you get the drift?
First and most important, welcome back, you are missed and always top of mind 🙏. I believe I get what you mean, though I run into that old limit, the limitations of language to express real indifference. To say ugly, we create beauty, the opposite, and somehow the indifference of Nature, its “just is” state, needs a word that goes beyond. The Daodejing so far, for me, is an argument to see Nature for what it is, whatever we might prefer the answer to be.
The indescribability... It almost takes me back to chapter 14, where the differences in cultures give us so many expressions and yet, the element of indescribability remains, and then, to chapter 19, where we are guided to stay away from the excess, and finally to chapter 21, which you cleverly titled "The Dao Guides."
I think, where the first half was straight up telling us what to do and what not to do, the second half is showing us the grey - a better word for the not-so-black, but neither too white, while taking us through the experience rather than just defining it for us.
This again is a chapter to come back to in a few days.
Stringing the chapters, you are threatening to decode the Daodejing! There is something about the "random walk" of the chapters but the key remains illusive. 🙂 They say the second half is more practical, the advice more specific. Some chapters, yes, but others definitely not. The order appears random, but isn't, and could be redone plausibly in many ways 🙏
Hahaha! Trust the Dao to keep us on our toes! 🙌🙏
I think we are similar to nature, but also different—nature can be serene and destructive. But unlike nature, we have the capacity for compassion, a will to choose, and the ability to chart a path. We can transcend nature - and that is both terrifying and beautiful.
A aspect most interesting to me of these ideas is how different minds can have what appear to real differences and yet reach similar conclusions or similar real actions. Such as us for instance, Miriam, my view of Nature is entirely comprehensive, nothing lies outside of it, or even could. Nature allows the possibility of kindness and compassion to flourish, but only if we prove it as a viable strategy for survival. So such differing views of Nature arrive in the same practical place. I appreciate that we can give special weight to the conclusion and not be lost in the differences along the way. We could have interesting discussions over the idea of transcending Nature. 🙏🙂
I totally know how you feel Paul. There are some lessons that I “logically” know are true but there is a huge barrier to me being able to embody. Ah to be human. I always love reading this series :)
Knowing another person can understand and empathize with our thoughts might be the best part of being human. 🙏
I consider it would be helpful Paul if you included the particular translation you used of the Daodejing, as there are SO many translations around, all with differing perspectives. Having said that, the Daoist tradition has always included a compassionate response to suffering, which continues in modern time. Most Daoist temples/organisations have charities connected to them. Perhaps that might address your rage? I hope so. As for "nature" - many folk believe in the concept of Gaia, wherein our planet is a "self-regulating complex system" or even a consciousness - and even attribute climate change to Gaia trying to throw off the poison humans have inflicted upon her.
Translations can capture the essence of the original, they can also mislead. here's a number of different interpretations of Chapter 62 - with vastly different emphasis. https://www.egreenway.com/taoism/ttclz62.htm
Sometimes translators put words or concepts which aren't there in the original due to their own cultural baggage.
just saying, "it's complicated"!
The twists and turns of the Daodejing's history are what have come to interest me the most. I appreciate it as a piece of art, collective human art. We might have a fun conversation about my thinking on consciousness (not that special) and what's included in nature (everything). 😄🙏
Thank you, Debbie, let me clarify the "rage" as general and undirected, as I think many people struggle with. Certainly nothing specific to Daoism, the Daodejing, or any organization. This chapter is part of a series on Medium, I have been meditating on a chapter a week (with some side quests). Probably it makes more sense to readers who got to start from chapter 1. I will DM the details of where the translation comes from. You might be the first person to recognize it!
that makes more sense. And yes certainly the piece would make more sense in context! :)
I really doubt whether to share these Medium chapters here out of order, but two years have passed and chapter 1 looks dated…. I’d write it differently today. Maybe a quick book when its all done.
It is hard with old copy - I try and rewrite but I must say the process is exhausting. I guess the old copy, out of date order, etc led me to thinking you were feeling the DDJ didnt take account of people's understandable rage. Glad you have clarified it.
And I Thank You for asking, I would not have seen that from my side. 🙏🙂💐